Bulolo Jonga - Author and Psychology Major

In this episode, Bulolo Jonga joins me to discuss the psychology of the crypto market, value creation, the symbolism behind Bitcoin, and more!

Transcription

Brandon Zemp  0:00  
Hey guys, it is Wednesday, November 20. This week on the podcast my friend below Jenga joins me to discuss all kinds of things in crypto, especially the psychology behind crypto and blockchain. He's a very knowledgeable guy and has a great take on the industry and I think you guys will definitely enjoy this episode. If you haven't already, be sure to subscribe and share this episode with somebody that you think would like to learn more about blockchain. Enjoy. 

This is the block hash podcast.

All right bulolo. How you doing? 

bulolo jonga  0:37  
Good, Brandon, how you doing my man? 

Brandon Zemp  0:39  
I'm good. How's your Tuesday going? 

bulolo jonga  0:41  
Tuesday as well starting out starting out a little a little busy, but I like it like that sometimes. 

Brandon Zemp  0:48  
Now I feel you 

bulolo jonga  0:49  
getting things done.

Brandon Zemp  0:51  
For the people that don't know you. Some people might some people probably won't. Tell me a little bit about your background. I know you have a story. Background In psychology and then kinda how that's led you to where you are now and crypto and blockchain What? So

bulolo jonga  1:07  
yeah, so my name is bulolo jonga, entrepreneur, Social Media Manager expert, my psych background, I've always been interested in the human mind, that's just kind of my Mo. Understanding that interpersonal relationships and interpersonal relationships are the foundation of building a world where we'd like to live. And so, following that passion, I tend to pick a college major dislike followed right along with that, but I took a different path and utilizing the things I've learned there, along with my own personal lessons in business and entrepreneurship, taking advantage of small opportunities to really find a way so help as many people as I can through the through my own example. So recently Book Club read the illusion on this the latest big news thing that I did the last year, which a global audience, I use a lot of my social platforms to promote the book and it's received great reviews, talks about many things expands in so many different markets and has many applications and things like crypto and blockchain. Those things interrelate. And using that as my platform, I'm building my name. I use my social influence in my lessons and marketing and I apply those two different disciplines. I found myself getting into crypto. The first time was in 2009, exposed exposed to it when Wikipedia had Bitcoin donations. And I couldn't buy bitcoin then because I was so young and my mom wouldn't let me use a credit card. But fast forward to 2014 when I met Brandon Then when I met you, and you got connected and introduced me to Litecoin that was the first time I bought crypto. Then the mount docks hat, the hack happened last llama crypto there. And then in 2017, I found myself back into the market before the Borbon really, really kicked off. So just been around the market. I've also studied the market studied the culture, I'm really really loved the philosophy behind blockchain and the philosophy behind Bitcoin as a new monetary policy and issuance for people to I guess, do commerce and interact. And again, they this relates to everything that I talk about everything that I'm interested in, because at the end of the day deals with people.

Brandon Zemp  3:50  
Very cool. I know you pretty well, but I mean, that's a good description. And yeah, I was definitely riding that 2017 bull market as well. It was pretty fun. I mean, there wasn't really Anything that you couldn't buy that wasn't going to go up? It was almost silly to speculate on on what was going to be a good projects when I mean, everything was up like 1,000,000,000%. Exactly. Obviously, we live in a little bit different world Two years later, or things started taking take shape and form a little bit, but no, it was it was fun. I think a lot of people definitely got more involved after that,

bulolo jonga  4:27  
So I enjoyed that. Just Just from like the standpoint, a lot of people. Again, this crypto has been around for such a long time. And like we they've had their own bull runs, you know, from like one of those bitcoins with $32. And it jumped up to 1000 you know, crash back down, but like just the fact that people got to participate and build wealth through that period was like phenomenal. I think that was a really, really, really big takeaway for me.

Brandon Zemp  4:54  
Yeah, there's a lot learned through that for sure. And you mentioned your book to a little bit I've definitely read it, I've definitely gone through it. And you definitely have an interesting take on a number of topics. But you also mentioned how some of that can apply to blockchain in some ways. So I was kind of curious, like your thoughts on that, like how it is certain things in your book that you wrote, psychologically applied to blockchain or or Bitcoin and your, in your view?

bulolo jonga  5:23  
I'll start with limits and talking about scarcity. So really looking at the scarcity and in relationship to value. So Bitcoin as a monetary as a monetary instrument, builds its value, essentially, essentially considering all of the things so it's limited, it's finite amount in the marketplace, where marketing where the markets have moved from gold and silver and taken, we've been taken off that standard. Bitcoin gives us something tangible now, so we can try We can, we can properly evaluate use reflective of the market. Now, the opportunity itself the mere fact that blockchain it was seen as something that could be used in the financial means and create new avenues for people to interact new avenues to create commerce new avenues to create wealth. I talked about that in limits where we get an image, we get an image and if we get fixed to the image, we get attached to it and it formalizes and crystallizes, whereas innovation comes from being attached to a very flexible image. Think about all all innovators, the Wright brothers when they created manpower flight, the creation of the modern world and organization organizing the means of production. It took a pretty large vision to make those things happen. And there are certain things I talk about my book like the third eye and appearance is where you have to have that vision. You have to cultivate that you have to see through The illusion you have to see through what is or rather see beyond what is currently manifested throughout our reality. So someone decided one day that blockchain added us in society. Long story short. The founders of Bitcoin, the founder or founders, we don't know who Satoshi is, created Bitcoin as a monetary instrument. In the time where money was circulating at a rapid rate, we just were just getting credit cards and whatnot. So it's been an idea that's been floating around there. But now it's crystallized. And it's really powerful. What happens when we actually make use of our vision to manifest things like that? So, generally, so generally speaking, yeah. When it comes to when it comes to the vision that created Bitcoin, and that created the blockchain platform to exist in the way does today so far, and where it's leading us to go? That's a really big thing.

Brandon Zemp  7:59  
Yeah, definitely. There's a big thing and kind of on the topic of scarcity. It a lot of people when they look at Bitcoin, and I'm sure you know this, they look at the fact that it's mathematically scarce and it's getting more and more scarce every single year because it has a limit. And the the inflation on Bitcoin decreases every single year, which adds to the scarcity. And a lot of people look at that and say, that's one major factor for why it has value. The other way to look at it is, Bitcoin is not one of a kind, there's a whole bunch of other crypto is out there. And you could look at it from the perspective of the market being over saturated with thousands of these, depending on how you look at it. I mean, Bitcoin either could have a lot of potential value, or it could really have no value just simply because there's so many options and I from from your perspective there. I mean, there are a lot of people out there that have to weigh that decision out every single day on whether or not they're going to buy or sell one or invest in it or choose to believe that it has value. Do you think that either of those really psychologically plays into the minds of the the investor?

bulolo jonga  9:23  
It definitely does. And I think you you put it pretty eloquently where valid like bitcoins, predominant value and one lens is the scarcity factor, which has driven markets for as long as we can remember. You know, gold has its value beyond other things because it's scarce and it's hard to come by Bitcoin took that idea and just digitized it, the long story short, you get all the technical stuff out of it, just digitize that process. So there's definitely a scarcity factor there. But like you also said, it also created a market where there are other tokens coins, that you can believe have value given what they offer you. So, to the casual investor or to the adversary period, consider what they value wants you to consider what they value most in the exchange of value their privacy tokens out there for example, you know, because Bitcoin is kind of semi anonymous only by I guess strings of text but if you follow the follow the golden trail, you can you can find out who's been doing what if you do enough blockchain analysis. So privacy tokens for example, there are things out there like like Monro dash of x and plenty of others which address this where they give you a privacy features so that you don't get so you can actually get anonymous transactions. So if you value privacy VC is probably worth investing in those kinds of coins, or tokens or blockchain adaptations. And I think that's what's beautiful about Bitcoin it started out, it started out with one main value proposition. And by its nature, it's allowed to evolve and incorporate many of these things which are permanent which permeates throughout the market. So I think you'll always have its place as maybe the gold standard, if nothing else. There's also room for other coins and other blockchain adaptations monetary leads will exist and derive probably if the same, if not more value than Bitcoin. But again, it's up to the collective to decide that for itself. Now, Bitcoin has the advantage of being first and psychologically that really, really matters. But just because the first doesn't mean that they always will be. And I think that's what I love about the space that it's still in its beginnings, even Over 12 years later, and we can't say for sure what's going to be on top in terms of profiting as a as an investor now,

Brandon Zemp  12:09  
right now, it makes a lot of sense. And I mean, bitcoins been around for over a decade too. So there's, there's a little bit of brand recognition there when people think about it, and there's a lot of symbolism behind what Bitcoin stands for and why it was created. And then just pure fact that it's been around that long, and it's done nothing but increasing value. The community gets back bigger every single year. I think there's a lot of symbolism behind Bitcoin psychologically, that also drives its value.

bulolo jonga  12:47  
I think so as well. And for some reason, it just made me think about this. Not to get into politics, but to see the American made me think of how the decentralized nature of Bitcoin Where they're independent parties, relatively independent parties, all cultivating and developing the I guess we'll call it the token but the token the coin. And for some and and given that, Nate given that it's been as nature and of course it was, first, it has withstood the test of time so far. And I think it's in large part because of that, where there are very few things that can get done without the collective agreement. And it made me think about and maybe this could be this could be seen as a positive and or negative, the American the American system of government, where it's essentially, look, look from the macro point of view, similar to Bitcoin, in the decentralized nature of our states versus the federal government, and how maybe, maybe it's stood the test of time and stayed on top for so long, given it's grown massively large but all So because every state in every province has its kind of own independence and there are very few things very few things that even though they're strong they night they unite the country it just like the Bitcoin, you said, so that was like the positive where it's like it's like the strength of Bitcoin reflects the strength of the USA at least the perceived value of the USA where we've marketed where the US has marketed itself as the greatest country in the world even though that's very debatable. Bitcoin has that similar proposition in the in the in the in the crypto market and I think it's in large part because of that decentralized nature. There are several there are several things that a centralized which may get things done faster, but for some reason have not surpassed the value of Bitcoin yet. If we're not if excluding the fact that it's been around first for so long,

Brandon Zemp  14:55  
right? But I mean value has also been shifting towards Bitcoin. A lot of ways to You're seeing you're seeing a lot less people buy gold, you're seeing a lot less people actually buy into stocks that are much younger, under 35 you're seeing a lot less people hold on to cash and move to digital systems where they can use like Apple Pay or the cash app or something like that, that allows them to be cashless in a lot of ways. And I think a lot of that has to do with accessibility and at the same time, understanding the perceived value of the US dollar as well. And a lot of that can be attributed to, to Bitcoin. And I think that's represented and its value since it's gone up from pennies to its highest point, almost 20,000 words sitting now just under 10,000. And the fact that has happened over what, like 11 years at this point, Yes, really. testifies to where bitcoins going and its value, at least in my opinion.

bulolo jonga  16:05  
Yeah, it's definitely it's definitely a testing to where it's going. And also, if nothing else, like you just you were just describing it's reflective of many unique narratives and unique things that are going on within our society today. Again, we're going cashless, we're working on getting ourselves to becoming the cashless society so that way, we can increase our efficiency through our lives. I think that's the really the big thing that I see that I see that is blockchain, not even just Bitcoin but blockchains value prop. It's reducing the inefficiencies that go on through our modern world. You know, like going back quickly, going back to my example of the US, and politics necessarily, not necessarily politics, but just the way things are structured. The decentralized nature of the US, that's doubtful, at least it's the negative of that the drawback is that things are very Slow, you have to wait for a lot of things. And not necessarily because it's not necessarily that relates to Bitcoin but the mere fact that we can replace a lot of inefficient interactions throughout government and not even just in our in our government but at our businesses and in our interactions on a day to day basis with other people that we can reduce those we can reduce those inefficiencies and reduce the friction it that is that permeates to permeate throughout existence to get things done, and to create a more collectively beneficial society for everyone. Absolutely. So I think so. I think so. Yeah, I definitely think that like if for nothing else, it's just that the the blockchain itself and its value prop as it as it as an efficiency facilitator will transform this world, one way or another and given Bitcoin as a monetary reflection of that, of that paradigm. Amongst the other things we were talking about cashless system Society and other mechanisms. It's only reflective of where that and the crypto space in general is going.

Brandon Zemp  18:09  
We were talking about competition versus cooperation and how blockchain is really starting to drive that. And it's kind of along the lines of what we're talking about right now and reducing friction. Then if we just look at companies for for a second, and we look at capitalism, what capitalism has been able to do for society, whether good or bad, competition through capitalism has led to a lot of development, a lot of technological development, has, in a lot of ways made life better. And but I mean, there's still a lot of friction with competition. I mean, it's, there's a phrase, we all know two minds are greater than one, right? Right. So I mean, it's awesome to have competition and to push each other to be better all the time, but the same time there's a degree of quality That needs to exist in the financial world, in industry, amongst corporations, that can be very difficult because you want to remain competitive. And you don't want to be overly vulnerable. Because you have IP, you have private information, you have things that are proprietary, make your company unique, that make your company profitable. And it can be very dangerous to cooperate with another company and share that information or risk sharing that information, which also kind of dives into privacy. And I was talking to someone about this for previous podcasts as well. With blockchain, I think we're really starting to see the possibilities where you can take all this competition between companies and bring them together and create an environment where they can work together on projects, and share information in data but also keep private, their own proprietary and Exactly. I was going to let you elaborate on your thoughts on that as well. I just think it's a really critical aspect for taking a further leap in society. I mean, whether it comes to value creation, whether it comes to development, ingenuity, being inventive and creating things, I think it's a very important step for us tech. I think blockchain really helps us get there.

bulolo jonga  20:23  
The last few things you just said we're pretty much the core of it value, create creation, period, ingenuity, creativity, all these things can only truly foster in most and the key word here is healthy. And for like a health for healthy systems who exist, creation needs to be at the at the forefront, like you'd like you said before competition has been useful it has its use, but in and of itself as the means to drive to drive industry and to drive interaction is go get goes against nature. Nature is inherently cooperative. I talk about that in my book, every all is one one is all all reflects each other. And when I get to the chapter on ownership which hence hence at monetary economic principles, everything flows healthily in the system when when things are float when things are being shared, that could be money, that can be information, that could be methods that could be whatever it is, you Whatever it is, is valued within the given constructs. So, the the thing that I love about the blockchain space and crypto space right now, actually to like to, I see I've seen two great examples of this, a theorem classic in a theorem. They had their own split a long time ago, given a core, I guess, a fundamental difference in belief and how they operate the Dow hack yet yet given the the Dell hack. Since then, I've seen community The communities in some respects, kind of be in a sort of competitive environment where obviously the themes of golf because it was considered the theorem. So marketing wise and development wise, it's just been superior. But I've seen recent in like, within the last year or Yeah, actually within the last year when I first bought a couple of theorem, classic tokens, and some of them I've seen the development where they're working together, where the theory of foundations working with them, and they're working on making the blockchains interrupter under operable and I've seen I think what was it the dojo Yeah, the the main token of the mall, at least it's considered so create, create a version of an owner operator inoperable. Funny saying that word with the theorem and testing that out and it's been welcomed. I think, the mere fact that a lot of this stuff is Open Source. Just fundamentally, a lot of these a lot of these technologies and adaptations are open source. So anyone can pick up

the open source version of Bitcoin and fork it and create a new version of it. And by doing that you are you giving life to the to the space. You know, a lot of the development with Bitcoin itself right now is happening in part due to the other players in the space. And while some will see that as competition, really, it's create, it's a creation of value throughout the space overall. And the sharing of information the waves going so rapidly now and i think it's it's in, in and of itself, the crypto space led by Bitcoin and others and the use of blockchain is spearheading a technological, technological. How do I put this, it is showing a technological reflection of the paradigm that we're entering. outside of just tech technology, but even collectively, where things are flowing in information and sharing it at a much more rapid pace, you know, so the the ability to create now, because information is freely available on the internet, people are willing to share it and not even charge a dime. Probably the best sources are the people that are sharing you for free. Through just that alone, the mere fact that you can share information, you can create a better you can create a better version of the blockchain adaptation that you're choosing. You can create a new adaptation, you can create new avenues to implement blockchain into everyday lives. You know, like I was thinking about how you've done a couple podcast talking about crypto art and, and addressing digital ownership of something. And I could record that on a blockchain and and be there forever transparently and open and available to the public to see and in just having those small mechanisms, things like that. available throughout our society will do tremendous things. And I think, again, given the collective paradigm, Bitcoin, the crypto space, the blockchain adaptations that are manifesting now, I've just peer reflections of where we are today as a society and where we're going, which is phenomenal. And its spearhead and mostly, and the core of the core, the core of that is, again, the sharing the sharing of information, the choosing to cooperate versus compete, which it seems, it seems almost a natural, given the habit that we've been in for the last century. But now, but now we're relearning that cooperation is the way and of course, as you mentioned, there are there are nuances to that again, privacy. There are some people still operate under the competitive competitive way where they will, they will do somebody wrong, or they will steal something from somebody or do something that is not in the best interest of another person or entity. But overall, the shift the shift into cooperation has shown more fruit for a lot of people then just competing and keeping everyone separate. Again, like you just said, like two heads are better than one, two organizations working together better than one to blockchains into two adaptations of blockchain working together better than one. And so happens that when you do cooperate, you can do something better for yourself that you couldn't have done before. So the the mere fact that cooperation, sharing, not taking personal ownership outside of using names and marketing, right, sharing the core essence of what makes you think functional, is essential for the space and for its expansion in the future.

Brandon Zemp  26:48  
Absolutely. It makes a lot of sense. And I think what really is starting to drive that is the fact that with blockchain, there's this attribute of trust looseness, many things you do. In life, you have to trust a company or some third party, or some middlemen to make sure that your transaction goes where it's supposed to go that you receive your order on time, you don't get screwed over in a deal. There's there's always this trust factor that kind of hampers and creates friction in the economy. And I think with all this cooperation that we're going to start to see amongst organizations and groups and societies, and whatnot, I think it really boils down to trust looseness, not having to rely on the other person or someone in the middle to make sure that it's going to be facilitated. And that has a lot to do with what blockchain really solved, which was the Byzantines generals problem. Being able to eliminate someone in the middle. I really think that with not just with Bitcoin, but with the blockchain technology in general, it's it's a huge, huge attribute. I'm trying to find the words here.

bulolo jonga  28:08  
This is something there's so much to say with this space that I understand like, it just is sometimes hard to get the words out because this is so much in there.

Brandon Zemp  28:17  
Absolutely. I mean, it when it boils down to it, it's just not having to trust in a third party not having to trust in, frankly, anything in business, that the fact that you can do that with blockchain is is very revolutionary. Being able to bring two people together two groups together that maybe don't agree on anything, could still collaborate. And that's fascinating. Imagine being able to have an incredibly good person and a terrorist work together on something. Right, like you can take two polar opposites good and evil. And with a blockchain, they could come to some type of Census. It's interesting, like when you think about that, from a philosophical perspective, 

bulolo jonga  29:07  
no, yeah, definitely.

Like one thing I share my book I like even directs the line, the strongest partnerships in the universe I went to a more entities come together and form and collectively align on a simple go. You know, so it's like, removing, so taking out again, this is it goes back to the, to the removing the inefficiencies, you know, because we judge a guy, this is not fellow philosophical, but less but we judge a terrorist, we judge someone who does what we call bad. And if they're offering to do something good things down the line things some something that's really phenomenal for for our world, that the mere fact that we label and judge them by what they have done against, strictly speaking philosophically, because we because there's a human factor in there where we judge that person and we does just the judgment alone. It hampers our ability to get things done. It hampers our ability to create the world we want to see, you know, like to say it bluntly. And like the, again, the value prop there, when you put the benefit when you put the efficient mechanism in there where it's just, we don't have to trust the other person on the other party. You get to do what you do you do best at its highest capacity. You don't have to waste energy on an outside entity. You don't have to waste your energy you can conserve it and transmute it into and it's a focus on what you do well and improving and improving that as best as possible. And doing that as best as possible. That's what helps get the collective what the collective wants, which is what is the best thing possible.

Brandon Zemp  30:48  
Absolutely. Like take the the US China trade war for example. The US doesn't really trust China for a lot of reasons and the Chinese really don't trust Americans. And it's very difficult to come up with a trade agreement that benefits both economies in the way that China's starting to grow from a export economy into an import economy. And the US is trying to transition out of an import economy economy to an export economy. And right, that's just a few minor things. Obviously, there's a lot of issues, but you could take two polar opposite countries that have serious differences. And you can use blockchain to build a bridge between those two because they don't need to trust each other. 

bulolo jonga  31:41  
Exactly like, and like you just like you just you literally just picked something like, their compliments. Like the each each has, what the other ones right. And in what makes it inefficient, amongst other things is the things that are attached to their names. You know, the way And again, it's all it's all these biases and judgments and the etc with along justified my mind it but removing just that and you and you see the value proposition, I want this, this person has that and this or this entity has that and and the mere fact that you have to trust the other person on the other end of that transaction that they will deliver on what you're asking for. It's a it's a very powerful thing, very powerful thing is things things will happen. Things will things will occur much more instantaneously. And he necessarily that aligns with that. So removing the trust factor removing the judgment factor. Now changing the language a little bit and enabling a judgment free of judgment free system. The blockchain is it socially, socially, economically, politically, it will remove so many inefficiencies that are due to human bias for And, and enable us to manifest the things that we wish to see throughout our society much quicker, much faster and much more prosperously, then then how it has collectively been done in the past.

Brandon Zemp  33:13  
Gotcha. Not it makes a lot of sense to what do you think the inhibitors are to not just Bitcoin adoption, but also blockchain adoption? I know those are two different things. I know blockchain in general is looked at in higher regard than Bitcoin is, for a lot of reasons. But I mean, Bitcoin still has seen massive adoption over the years. But I mean, there's also obvious things that are really inhibiting that. And I'm curious how, how you see it, what your opinion is on what those inhibitors might be.

bulolo jonga  33:51  
So starting off with Bitcoin, and I'll dive into blockchain afterwards, starting with Bitcoin and not even just Bitcoin, but just blocks And I mean, crypto in general. It's still, even after 12 years, and even though it's improved technological rate in which people can use this stuff, it's still the mainstream needs a very, very simple way to access crypto. We have mechanisms like Coinbase. But the inhibitors right now is that there are very few platforms for people to access crypto, it's very limited. So that would be that's what I would consider the first thing and then also the ease of use the ease of use to use crypto, the ease of use to access the markets, all the all these things that are wet that central authorities are good at doing. crypto is lacking. Like we trust banks because they have a system in place that makes it easy for the consumer to just Do one thing. And that's it, they have the money they have, they have the ability to go spend it, just get this card, boom, that's it. Whereas crypto needs that and it's an I've seen in the space it's developing. So that's not really a strong inhibitor. It's just more a matter of development. Um, so that will come with time. Now with blockchain in general, here's here's something and I'm just purely imagining now like, what what would keep blockchain from becoming massively adopted, the mere fact that it's pub, it's, it's a record that cannot be changed, transformed, destroyed or anything, it's there forever. And so far as technology exists, whatever is recorded on there exists forever. That kind of permanence. Now, the transparency part is interesting, but it's the permanence that make that might make some people a little bit hesitant sense it use it, I see that I see that for overall adoption, that it has to be some link through the larger governing bodies or the some play with them. And though and that's transparency and the permanent factor of those mechanisms, will introduce a challenge will introduce a challenge for for mass adoption throughout society. Now, I think it will happen. I think the adoption will happen regardless of that. And they'll find a way to rectify that. But at the current time, transparency and permanence a very scary things for for large governing bodies, or even just someone who has something to keep private. You know, we were complaining or at least collectively, we're complaining about what Facebook is doing. And you know, the power of advertising and what they do to target you with, with messages and whatnot. But they have they have all this data now imagine that data cannot be scrubbed. Imagine that data being collected and forever in a place. It's it makes you think it makes you think a little bit about whether you want to be using this technology now, I think, again, businesses will make use of it, it will, again the the value of how much money they'll save and create via using blockchain versus not, I think will offset whatever that worry may be. But for someone or something that has that wants, something that someone or something that has something to hide, transparency and permanence which blockchain inherently offers, may inhibit the ability for it to be massively adopted. It could. And that's just an that's just me imagining off the top of my head. 

Brandon Zemp  37:44  
I mean, there's no right or wrong answer because no one really knows. So I mean, it's okay to speculate for sure. Yeah, I think I don't worry too much about the technology being adopted. I think all technologies continue to grow. grass, I think time in history has has taught us that with blockchain, I worry more about how it will be used, like ethically like will it be used for used for nefarious purposes? Geez, I can't talk today or will be used for good purposes, right? You can use a blockchain to aggregate data and control society, and a lot of ways how China wants to, or you could use blockchain to open and free society, right? Bitcoin being a prime example of that. So for me, it comes down more to privacy, and then what direction do we go? Do we go in a centralized direction? Or do we go in a decentralized direction? And I mean, the smart answer is will they'll be a little bit of both, you know, that's, that's the neutral answer. But I mean, I guess you never know. It seems like technology has been used. Very Heavily for good things and very heavily for bad things. Like when you invent a new bomb, it's not usually used for good things. It's usually used for bad things.Right? 

bulolo jonga  39:11  
Exactly.

Brandon Zemp  39:13  
If you so like the utility Yeah. Yeah, I think it's in the eye of the beholder. I think technology, whether it's good or bad is subjective. If you look at the automobile, for example, it's good if you use it for getting to point from point A to point B. But it's bad if you use it to run over your neighbor.

bulolo jonga  39:33  
Exactly. I ran, I ran through a similar example and discussion of talking about the use case for even just like social media, where they were saying that social media is bad overall. And I propose and which is pretty much the neutral answer here. But like I propose that that it's that it's use and its judgment of good or bad is dependent entirely on the user. Right and therefore in this case, in this case, we answering the question, it's really up to the market to decide that given if it's an if it's going in a decentralized manner. Now, if it's going into more, if it leans more centralized then, like our traditional systems are, then it's collectively decided by the most powerful actors. The ones that have the most skin in the game, the most leverage, the most influence in the space will determine where that goes. But the one nuance here is that the space is open, the space is open for participation by anyone. Whereas traditional methods of getting influence and driving the technology somewhere has primarily been limited to a very select few parties in our history. I think that's one very fantastic thing about the blockchain and crypto space. I also think that a lot of people get confused on and this is why I brought up subjectivity. I think people kind of overlook What technologies do and why technologies are important?

Brandon Zemp  41:06  
technologies, at least in my opinion, and from what I've seen, and from my research and from my experience, technologies are really when the subject subjective value aligns with the intrinsic value. Let me give you like an example. And I've probably made this example a few times on the podcast, but I mean, it's, it's important. So like, look at transportation, for example, for a very long time, we used horses as transportation. The intrinsic value of a horse is not for transportation, it's an animal. That I mean, the subjective value of the horse is it can move and carry a lot and get you from point A to point B. Right? Right. What technological advancement approves upon the horse as transportation. The Automobile is One example. It's subjective value is transportation. That's what we use it for. But it was also created for transportation. So its intrinsic value is transportation. That's why riding a horse to work is outdated and no one does it. You, you take your car, you take the train, or you take a plane, or you take a boat like whatever, whatever you need to do like the technology has value when its intrinsic value is aligned with subjective value. And with Bitcoin for example, and this is the one point I make all the times I feel like it's only point I really have to make if everyone wants to say gold is money. subjectively it is money. We agree that it's money we use it as money. subjectively gold is money. intrinsically. Gold isn't money. intrinsically. Gold is conductive, right. That's an intrinsic value of gold. But it's It's not intrinsically money. Now, if you look at the technological improvements of money, currency is the closest thing that we've gotten to that with Fiat. And for the first time in history with Bitcoin, we have a real technological advancement in the form of money. Where bitcoins intrinsic value is money, it's built to be money and subjectively It is used as money. So I mean, if you take Bitcoin, you take that example, and you compare it to any technology ever. It has value, and it will continue to grow, and people will continue to pursue it, because that's what it's built for. That's the whole point of technology. It's to improve upon our earlier means of survival and living and even improving upon older technologies. Like the invention of the wheel was technology, but we invented better wheels, right? And maybe something will be invented. That's better. Bitcoin that's entirely possible. But at the given moment, yeah, bitcoins value heavily in my opinion comes from the fact that its intrinsic value aligns with its subjective value. And I think a lot of people do see that I just don't think they really understand why.

bulolo jonga  44:16  
Yeah, I'm new, you pretty much eloquently said that. Like, the fact that it's in its value, intrinsic and use case, value is aligned, is why it makes sense. It's why it will thrive. It's why it will continue even more esoteric and metaphysical. All the things that are aligned from from from intent to action, all the way through the things that remain the line to the things that last people say truth always stands the test of time. Why? Because it's always aligned to itself. Bitcoin as as a technological adaptation of money, whose intrinsic value is money will stand the test of time. That will be the top we don't know because Obviously, that's open ended. It can. There's also other options too. But, but up until now, because it's just like other technologies that have stood the test of time, it's its use case has always been aligned with its use with its intrinsic value. And just by that alone, it can do phenomenal things. Any technology that's aligned with its intrinsic value, does phenomenal things. And so when it'll be it'll be fascinating. It'll be fascinating in these coming years when the subject of value now, when we when we actually make use of Bitcoin, we actually put the application and it gets more more traction. It'll be fun to see what will happen and how that will occur, which I'm excited for. So I love the space. It's, again, it's being as brand new we get we collectively get to write the story of how Bitcoin becomes to be how the crypto space becomes, to me how blockchain gets to evolve. Is it all Naturally, it's because their intrinsic values naturally align. With its use case, there's little to no deviation from that

Brandon Zemp  46:09  
same same reasons that excite me and fascinate me about the space. And that's actually probably good. Some good thoughts to wrap up on anyways, and let the listen Yeah. But before we go ahead and wrap up and everything, is there anything in the world of Mr. Jonga that you got going on or that you're working on? Or any final thoughts or, or how can people follow you on social media or keep up with you? Or check out your book, I'll kind of leave the last few minutes open ended so you can talk about whatever you like.

bulolo jonga  46:45  
All right, um, well, slowly, slowly getting myself back into posting on Instagram and I post a little bit on Twitter. I will be enhancing my brand, my brand presence In the coming time hasn't been the the main focus of my paid right now. But I definitely want to hop on and, you know, get myself out there. So if you want to follow me on Instagram, you can find me at demon facts. I share wisdom meditations, reflections, wisdom is the umbrella term for everything I share, you can click a picture, even if it's me and you'll see something valuable there. I also share content on my Twitter, which is being manufactured as well with an underscore. You can find my book at just be jungle calm. That's my personal website that I developed a year ago. And you can subscribe to my email list. And when it comes time, in the coming future, I'll be sharing a lot, a lot of content. I'll be sharing more deep, deep wisdom, deep esoteric knowledge. I'll be sharing my meditations I'll be sharing more of my wisdom and I'll be sharing more of Pretty much topical things, things like blockchain and how they relate to spirituality and metaphysics. Because again, everything is all aligned, everything is becoming the world is becoming grander. And this is one of many, many, many technological implementations and society that will make that possible for many people. So, that said, I'm grateful to being on your podcast, Brandon.

Brandon Zemp  48:25  
Awesome. Yeah, yeah, of course. Trying to create more opportunities for people in the space to share their voice and opinion on different subjects and try to I try to keep it pretty broad, like, definitely, like bringing on different like, crypto artists and whatnot, because they're really driving like the conversation and then bringing on people that are more techie and nerdy, like me that want to talk about the projects in depth and what they're working on. And then every once in a while bringing in some more outside people that have different perspective and that. And like you since you have a psych background, it's interesting to like, hear, from your opinion, in your view how you see how people in the space think when it comes to investing, or when it comes to working on these projects or just seeing the future for them. So that definitely thank you for sharing all that today. Really appreciate it. And we'll definitely have to do it again soon.

bulolo jonga  49:30  
Yes, let's definitely have this conversation and discussion again soon, man. 

Brandon Zemp  49:33  
Absolutely.

All right. Take it easy.

bulolo jonga  49:36  
Take it easy.