Dennis Lewis - Author of "Behold the Cryptopreneurs"

In this episode, Dennis Lewis joins me to discuss his new book "Behold the Cryptopreneurs". He has a fantastic view of the crypto space and how blockchain projects can improve going forward.

Transcription

Brandon Zemp  0:00  
What's going on guys is Wednesday, October 23. This week on the podcast, Dennis Lewis joins me to discuss his new book, Behold the crypto printers. Dennis definitely has a unique take on the crypto industry right now and where it's heading, and he has a very good way of analyzing how these projects need to develop to get to their full potential. It's a great episode. So be sure to share it with your friends, family, colleagues, anyone that you think needs to learn more about blockchain. And if you haven't already, make sure you subscribe. Enjoy.

This is the block hash podcast.

So Dennis, nice to have you on how you doing how's your Monday going?

Dennis Lewis  0:46  
going really well. Thanks for having me on Brandon.

Brandon Zemp  0:50  
Absolutely. For the for the audience. For the people that will be listening to this. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your your story, your background, how you kind of got to where you are today.

Dennis Lewis  1:01  
Sure. Well, you know, it all started a long time ago in a far off place just 30 miles from Roswell, New Mexico. Actually, that's where I was born in a little town called are called Artesia. And I always like to start off saying anything weird that happens when I say is, it's all because of the aliens. So that gives you a good starting point. I'm not going back a little bit more seriously. Yeah, I am the CEO of green light digital, we run a boutique, blockchain marketing consulting firm, we've worked with quite a number of projects. Over the last few years, we've raised about 50 million for different projects. And my goal is to help solid projects, get out there and tell their stories in a compelling way that generates enthusiasm, while avoiding all of the other riffraff that is out there. Mostly abundant in our industry.

Brandon Zemp  2:03  
What kind of projects have you taken on with green light?

Dennis Lewis  2:05  
Well, you know, we've we've worked with quite a few projects, some have been more successful than others.

We've built big communities, we've built huge bounty programs. We've done all sorts of, you know, investor outreach, we've, you know, we've done the full suite of services for projects. You know, I don't really, you know, I'm not here really to plug the different projects that we've worked on, but right, anybody wants to go to ICF success com they can, they can definitely see some of our clients. With that in mind, though, you know, one of the things that, that I've really started to be frustrated with in the last, you know, the last several months, which led me and we'll talk later about the book, is that it's really frustrating to see two things going on, one to see private checks that are all over the place raising lots of money and aren't delivering on the promises. And, you know, that's that could be because of poor intention by the founders or it could be because of a lot of other factors. And we could talk about those if you like. And then the other thing is, is there are projects out there that are solid and have really good teams and that are working to, to solve real problems for real people. And, you know, they're struggling to actually earn a place in the marketplace. So I think both things are equally, you know, frustrating. And I think that's, that's those are the sort of questions we need to be answered as as an industry right now.

Brandon Zemp  3:39  
Absolutely. And I think that that stuff has definitely been a major contributing factor in terms of plaguing this industry the last few years, especially with what we had with the Icos back in 2017. And then having a lot of projects pop up out of nowhere very questionable standards and I think you get this contrast between which projects are fake and which projects are real. And it's very hard for a lot of people to discern. So I guess my question for you is, how do you kind of look at these projects and determine which ones are fake versus which ones are real? Is it? Do you look at the founders? Do you look at the technical stuff? How do you do it?

Dennis Lewis  4:23  
So that's a great question. And and I don't want to come out here and say, I'm the answer to all everybody's questions, because that would be presumptuous. But the truth is, you know, fake projects scams. To me, that's the second biggest problem we have. And we can talk about that a little bit more in depth, because I think the first biggest problem is it is another problem that that I've witnessed on the inside of a lot of projects. And it's it's not necessarily that the founders and the team members don't want to deliver is that they lack the entrepreneurial spirit. They lack that the good old fashioned street cred, you know how to build a business skills to actually make their project sustainable and make them able to deliver on the ideas that they have. Because a good idea is just not enough to build a big a solid project on you have to know so many other things. You have to know how to manage your money. You have to know how to manage your team, how to motivate people how to do you know how to compelling you know, tell your story in a way that gets people into the asset. And there's so many different aspects to running a solid project and I think that that's where so many founders, flounder if you want, you know, to make a play on words. They're the founders flounder because they may know enough about blockchain. They may be really, they may be technical wizards, they may you know, have an amazing time. technical background. But being a good engineer doesn't make you a good entrepreneur. And it definitely doesn't make you a good cryptocurrency. And that's what I wrote the book about, because I really believe we need crypto printers that have a much more well rounded, holistic view of how to how to actually build a project that sustainable and that actually makes a difference in the world. Absolutely. And I

Brandon Zemp  6:25  
am glad that you are writing a book really revolving around that topic because it is a huge issue where there are a lot of very smart people and a lot there's a lot of people with good intentions to in the crypto and blockchain space that are building projects that just don't have those business skills that don't have the skills of an entrepreneur that make projects and businesses successful. And I mean, you can see this like very early on back in Silicon Valley, too. I mean, there's a lot of like, really smart guys were walking into business meetings with their hoodies that are coders, they don't know really anything about business. They're just looking for money. And I think you get a lot of similar people in this crypto industry to you get a lot of people that are very technical that are very good at coding that are as nerdy as, as I am, that don't understand the business side of it. So it's very cool that you're writing a book that really kind of grasp that perspective of the industry.

Dennis Lewis  7:24  
Well, you know, I did it because I've seen it. I mean, this is an eyewitness account of so many things that I've witnessed in my own, you know, my own flesh and blood. I've seen it on the inside of these projects. I've seen projects die because they raise too much money. I've seen projects die because the CEO might have been smart, but he had absolutely no idea how to build a team and how to keep a team together and make them work together. I've seen projects die because the founders, you know, once they had some money, they were at each other's throats until it was all gone. You know, there's so many things that happen in and, and it's really kind of depressing because, you know, all these cases I'm talking about I'm not naming names, but, you know, they have they had promising stories, they had promising ideas. They weren't stupid, but they lacked the skills they lacked, you know, you know, I, there's a chapter in the book that talks about something that's terribly unsexy, but it's terribly, terribly important, which is accounting. You know, how many projects, you know, crash and burn, not because they can't raise some money because some of the memories, you know, boatloads of money, but they don't know how to keep track of it. They don't know how to administer it correctly. Or, you know, suddenly you've got this. You know, this young guy in a hoodie, like you said, and I think that's funny. I wrote a post not long ago about the Zuckerberg paradox. We can talk about that if you want. You know, it takes suddenly think they're they've got to be Warren Buffett, because now they've got to administer all this capital they've raised, and they rush off and they put money into this project and that project and they think they're, you know, they're being wise custodians of, you know, the money that they've been, you know, that that token investors have put in their hands. And they wake up three months later, and it's all gone. And they say, Oh, damn, how am I going to make my project now? Because that's not their skill set. You know, and that's a really terrible thing to give, you know, give a 25 year old and a hoodie given $25 million. And you know, all sorts of bad things can happen.

Brandon Zemp  9:40  
It's also difficult because a lot of these projects are very decentralized are open source. And there's no not always a formal structure behind them too. So you get just a group of engineers to give themselves titles, or a group of people that don't necessarily understand business or economics, or they're primarily focused on this new token economics. They just don't know how to grow the project as a business and don't know how to keep an eye on its valuation and to keep an eye on the finances and that whole aspect of it. It's it's definitely an issue.

Dennis Lewis  10:19  
Yeah, I mean, it really is. I mean, you know, I in the post I wrote the other day, and I thought it was funny. I said that I started off saying, I think no single human being alive. It's done more to harm progress for humanity than Mark Zuckerberg. You know, I said that not because Facebook is a humongous behemoth that doesn't care about its users, which it might definitely might be but but because of the myth that hit his, his start, has created, you know, this idea that this, you know, dreamy eyed kid in a dorm room is going to come in and disrupt every industry in the world. world and make, you know and make miracles happen. And the fact that he built an enormous creature, which is called Facebook only makes that myth harder to, to, to, to makes it seem it says in our in our psyches, you know, and that's not really the way long lasting solid businesses are built. I mean, they're usually built by people with, you know, some gray hair on their heads like me, you know, they've gone through the cycle various times, they've, they've lost their shirt, you know, a couple of times they, you know, they've, they've, they've lived the experience that you need to be able to later build a real decent project. And we need more people like that in this industry. Because, you know, the promise is there. You know, I'm, I'm as enthusiastic and as gung ho about blockchain technology as I've ever been, and I've been around for a long time, but you know, it we're not going to deliver on that promise on Last, you know, we get over these problems. And part of it is, you know, we can't be exclusively thinking about trading and token biases and market caps, that can't be our focus. This industry needs to be focused on solving problems, solving problems, like healthcare solving, you know, solving problems for democracy, solving problems for, you know, making supply chains more efficient solving problems for your local coffee shop, if that's what you want to do, but solving real problems, and the technology will do that if we empower it to be that solution. But if we're always thinking about can we, you know, build a project that hits a billion dollar market cap on market cap, you know, that's the wrong focus. That's not going to get us where we need.

Brandon Zemp  12:50  
Exactly and so what is the solution? How do we how do we get to that point where we have better projects that are more informed with better structure and with Better founders like, Is this like an educational issue, in your opinion? Or is this just focused on the wrong? The wrong aspects and the wrong topics? Like it was just focused too much on money? Like, how do we shift that focus towards the the technological side of it, to growing it properly to something that's more like entrepreneurial in nature? Or just or whatever comes to mind and European? How do we make that shift and solve this problem that we've been talking about?

Dennis Lewis  13:32  
Yeah, it's a great question. But let me let me before I give you my opinion on that, let me ask you a question. Do you think that if you look at all the projects since maybe mid 2017, right about now, do you think that the interests of the token purchasers were aligned with the interest of the token sellers of the founders of

Brandon Zemp  13:54  
the project? Absolutely not. Just because there's been so many of them that have ripped people off That have produced absolutely nothing. With that said, I do believe there are a very small percentage of them that that's the guy that had good intentions. But in general, it was a huge issue that blew up.

Dennis Lewis  14:12  
Yeah. And that I think, is the core of the core problem. And one of the things that I talked about in depth in the book is precisely how could we How can we take the decentralize the technology that we have at our disposal, and use it in a way that aligns the interests of token investors with the founders of the projects. And the solution that I propose in the book is something that I call a distributed ICF. I believe that the model of using cryptocurrencies and using the blockchain to fundraise for projects is it is an exciting it's a proposition it is a whole new way to to allocate resources to really interesting projects. You know, The truth is VC capital is a gentleman's club. You know, it is I mean, you have to know people, you have to be in the circuit, you have to, you know, you could if you're, you know, if you're a bright guy in, you know, in in the middle of Kansas somewhere, the odds of a big venture capital investing into your startup or next to nail because you're not in the right place, you don't know the right people and you so it's an uphill battle. And, you know, blockchain, the the Ico concept, definitely open the door to projects to be funded that would probably never have gotten money, you know, maybe maybe get too many of them. You know, we could laugh about that, that maybe it would have been a better idea if they had but I think that by creating a model, which is built around the smart contract, that doesn't give the project all of its money up front. Instead, it allows the project to raise money. Over time in in in quarterly chunks, as it

delivers on promises that it makes to the people who buy the tokens is it is an excellent model for the next phase of using the blockchain to fundraise for crypto openers for in a cryptocurrency or in the sense of being a solid business person who wants to leverage the blockchain. And that's what a distributed Ico would do. And all it requires Is it is it is that at the end of each quarter, the token holders would vote on one simple question. And that question is should the project continue? Should that should the project continue? If they if the majority says yes, then the project gets the next round of funding that has been raised and it sets its goals for the next quarter and you know, it just it keeps going. This has a lot of advantages for So that doesn't give the project's a whole boatload of money up front that they don't need. Okay, it requires that that takes you know, and and and that does two things that are really important one, it sends the scammers running for the hills because they're not interested. You know, they know they're not going to get the Lambo to, you know, the easy way to the Lambo. So they're not interested in that in doing it that way. But the second thing is it makes life so much easier for the founders. You know, I've having lived through big Icos and running big Icos. I know how hard it is, I know how complicated it is to build a community with 20,000 50,000 people in it and try and, you know, it's herding cats, it's trying to build a humongous global movement, almost from scratch, it takes resources, it takes tons of effort, it takes lots of good luck and it basically consumes all the efforts of the people in the project for a considerable amount of time. So You know, that's not what a founder of a promising project needs either. They need to be focused on delivering on their promises. So if they can be raising funds from a much smaller group of people because they don't need that much money, that makes it better for them. It makes it the scammers run away. And it also gives the people getting into the project the security, that they're not, you know, there's accountability. There's a plan, there's a their their stated goals for each quarter their stated promises, you know, I'm sure there's a vested interest there to say yes, of course everybody wants would want their projects if they're reasonably successful to continue. I mean, there you know, but

there is a there's a vetting process that there's a process there where it forces those interests to be in alignment. It forces the the founders interest to be in alignment with the token holders and With the other stakeholders, and I think that is a is an amazing model to really get this industry going in the right direction. Because if you can't, you know, get a small group of enthusiastic supporters to, you know, invest in your project on a smaller scale, where and then commit yourself to doing the hard work to making, you know, making milestones every quarter and meeting those milestones, then you probably don't deserve to be running a startup yet. You probably should be working for somebody else. Right? 

Brandon Zemp  19:35  
I think you're right on the money there with everything he said. I think he really summed it up really well, to kind of go back to like, different ways to fund these projects and everything. There are there are a few that have been able to do that fairly well like take her down. Oh, for example, through Io, HK and Charles Hoskinson. They've done a great job raising money early on taking the project slowly, having funds dispersed slowly over time to Pay for developments so that they can finish developing the Cortana project. And I think models like that are a lot of these projects need to take on the need to embrace the ability to properly distribute funds over a given period of time to allow proper developments. And I think you get too many projects that push way too fast to grow. Especially the decentralized projects like Tron, for example, that are just marketing like crazy iOS marketing like crazy and trying to get out there. But development is much slower or much more, they're moving faster and not developing as much, versus projects like Cortana that are doing the opposite. And there's Yeah, there's a huge deficiency of that for sure in the industry, but it's also exciting to see where these these smart contracts can take us even outside of just organizing these projects. Because when you get into tokenization and you get into the ability to tokenize us about Anything you can think of in business and everyday life in any kind of industry. There's so many different applications for this stuff. And I really think we're just scratching the surface, especially with how young this market is.

Dennis Lewis  21:15  
You're so right there. I totally agree. Yeah, I think we're just I was just thinking when you said that I would the phrase that was in my, in my head before you said it was we're scratching the surface, there's so much promise for using this, these technologies to to solve problems that make people's lives better. You know, I'm, I'm all for technology did grow and get better. That's awesome. There's no there's no doubt about it. But, you know, if your only goal of your project is transactions per second, or, you know, something like that, you know, or a new consensus algorithm, well, you know, you're going to have a hard time. You know, getting getting very many people in the real world excited about it. But when you're solving real problems, When you're making life easier for real people, that's where that's where this industry is going to take off. And and I think that's the real focus.

Brandon Zemp  22:09  
Absolutely. And I think there's even a bigger impact on countries that are far less developed than first world countries and what this technology can help do two, to elevate different groups of people in different places and in different cultures. And just in terms of humanity. blockchain is a fantastic technology. And I'm sure you agree with me, and how exciting its feature is. One of the things that worries me though, when you look at the cryptocurrency side of the industry, just in general, there's a lot of greed. There's a lot of corruption. There's a lot of people doing malicious things. Deep in your opinion. Do you think that crypto in a way has kind of hurt the image of what blockchain is or do you think people can see through that?

Dennis Lewis  22:56  
Well, there's no doubt about it that we the as an industry, we've got A reputation problem. Anybody who says anything else is full of it. Because I mean, you know, when you read the headlines, and you see ransomware, and you see pump and dump, and you see all of these terms coming out, I mean, of course, there's a problem and, and, and a lot of it is maybe just because it's a new emerging market, and that happens, because human nature is that way to attract some, always, you know, there's shady people out there, there's, there's no doubt about it. But I think that the real key here is the focus. And that's where the danger is. We can't necessarily eliminate we're not going to change human nature, we're not going to make it a perfect world where there aren't bad people doing bad stuff. But we can definitely as an industry, change where we put the spotlight and where we focus our energies. And that's why I was saying if if our energies are only focused on that aspect of This industry, which is the, the speculative trade trader mentality of, you know, can this token go up 10% 20% in the next week, and I can, I can, you know, sell at the top and buy at the bottom and play the market. All of that is great when it's auxiliary, when it is a residual thing. I mean, that happens in all financial markets. But the difference is, is that if you look at manufacturing, or you look at, you know, pretty much any market out there commodities, whatever it is, there's also a purpose behind it, you know, people speculate on the price of soybeans, but they still use soy beans for to eat, to make food to, you know, for ZM you know, real uses in the real world. And we just need to be sure that the solutions that we're providing people with the blockchain are actually having intrinsic value in the real world. And when we do that, then The speculative trader part will, I think that will fix itself.

Brandon Zemp  25:04  
Yeah, I really do hope it it kind of self corrects in a lot of ways, then I think it will over time. I mean, we're, we're just starting to, again, scratch the surface and especially with like regulations and how we want to use this technology. Do we want to go in a decentralized direction? Do we want to go in a centralized direction? Do we want a little bit of both at the same time? Right. And at the same time, how will blockchain ultimately be used? I mean, there's plenty of people out there. They're very smart that believe that blockchain can be used for terrible, terrible intentions to control society. At the same time, blockchain has a way to liberate us from the control of society.

Dennis Lewis  25:51  
So it's, it's one, we're going to change one master for the other. Yeah,

Brandon Zemp  25:57  
maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's it's one of those things. Interesting technologies that is going to really, in my opinion, fundamentally change the way we use the internet and the way that we're all connected and interact with each other. It's I don't know, it could be either very, very good or very, very bad in the end. I mean, we're a very crazy world right now.

Dennis Lewis  26:19  
We would that's definitely true. I mean, I think

like any technology is probably has these these these issues. I mean, look at, you know, look at bioengineering or look at nano technologies, or look at artificial intelligence, all these emerging technologies have, you know, have that dark side to them as well. And there are obviously, there are ways of abusing them. So I don't think it's the technology necessarily, I mean, it all boils down to the people. You know, businesses, I always say businesses is a is a team sport. It's done between people and technology is just a tool. So I think that you know, the benefits are definitely there for Society from blockchain technology as long as we collectively, you know, are sensible enough not to jump into, you know, these strange dystopian, post apocalyptic kind of scenarios where, you know, unfortunately our industry is a little bit, you know, in love with these kind of crazy ideas. And, you know, I don't think we need to throw out the baby with the bathwater, right? I mean, we don't need it a world that doesn't have laws. We just need to, you know, I don't think anybody's really going to be seriously wanting an anarchistic, you know, future based on you know, this extreme decentralization. Right. I don't see that happening. I think that we would be all a lot better off if we were focused on how can we get this technology and use it and have get it to the point where we're grabbing eyes comfortably. blockchain technology isn't she doesn't know

Brandon Zemp  28:02  
it right? And I generally lean towards blockchain being a good thing. It's going to help liberate people even more in the world. I mean, there's there's places in the world like China, for example, where the citizens in a lot of ways willingly give up certain liberties so that they can have certain advancements in technology and certain things that make their life better. And giving up some of those liberties means giving up some privacy giving up sovereignty that you would have the freedoms you would have in America,

Dennis Lewis  28:32  
or that we like to think that we have

Brandon Zemp  28:34  
sure or that Yeah, we like to think

Dennis Lewis  28:37  
Yeah, because I don't know lately, you're gonna have to be we have to be a little bit careful about the we really have and what we like to think that we

Brandon Zemp  28:45  
sure and I never get into politics, it gets a little too polarizing. there's a there's a lot of crazy stuff going on, all over the world and both but in terms of where blockchains going when When you look at it, and when you look at the development and even the issues that it has, do you think that we're our world? Are we moving towards a decentralized world, a centralized world, or maybe a little bit of both? I have a

Dennis Lewis  29:16  
feeling that it's a little bit of both. And I think that's probably the best alternative. I think that if you take a step back and you look on a broader scale, sort of on a more historical scale, I think that even from you know, the 1950s moving forward, you know, we have, there's a clear trend to move from the large monolithic corporate structures that huge corporations towards, you know, the internet, open the door to the little guy in open the door that anybody can, can can be a publisher, anybody can have can have a way of expressing themselves and reaching a massive audience. And if you look at it That perspective the blockchain is is an extension of that it's the ability for smaller organizations to have a bigger impact in the world. And to reduce the power of, of, you know, big centralized structures that maybe aren't as useful as they were at one point, you know, call them corporations call them religions, call them, governments, you know, I think that this, there's a lot of this influx. So I think the overall trend is towards empowering the individual and empowering the smaller groups against the power of, you know, big structures that, you know, have traditionally governed society. But I don't think that that necessarily means that we have to go towards a completely decentralized model where, you know, everything is, you know, I don't think we need to be curious about it. I think that there's, there's definitely room for, you know, KYC procedures, there's definitely room For actually being able to know that who you're talking to on the other side, I think those kinds of questions are are important. I don't think that, you know, we need to be so, so picky about being completely decentralized, that we make life unbearable forever.

Brandon Zemp  31:17  
Absolutely. I totally agree with all that. So your book, behold, the cryptopreneurs. When when is it coming out? Where can people buy it? And what's the general back cover summary for the book when they pick it up?

Dennis Lewis  31:35  
Cool. Well, the book is out now and it's on Amazon. So you can get it in paperback. You can get it on Kindle version. You can get the first four chapters for free. If you go to crypto producers club. We'll talk about that at the end maybe. But the book is, is basically it's a it's a it's a it's a scream in the night, if you will, towards solving these problems. We've been Talking about and solving the problem of really taking you know, is saying, Hey, we have this enormous beautiful opportunity with this technology that is so revolutionary and so powerful. And we're squandering it by not focusing on actually delivering on the, on the true potential. And then I just dig into some really practical, you know, ways of making that better. You know, how can we, you know, how can we learn from people like Henry Ford or from McDonald's hamburgers, you know, and apply those lessons to the blockchain into our blockchain startups. How can we you know, what the value of having a few more crypto geezers out there like I tongue in cheek color, call myself in the book, you know, we need some people with a few more years working in some of these projects so that they know they learned the skills and they have the skills on board to actually be able to To make good on what they they, on the, on the, on the dreams that they have on the visions that they're there they have for that for that they want to, to make in the real world. But these things don't happen just because you have a magic wand and you say blockchain and suddenly it works in the real world isn't that way, you've got to, you've got to do a lot of hard work, you gotta roll your sleeves up, you've gotta you know, sales and marketing are important. You've got to tell your story, but you can't just tell your story from a nerdy tech tech engineer point of view and think, Oh, well, everybody's gonna fall in love with my latest, you know, new consensus algorithm. Come on, nobody's gonna, you know, when's the last time that somebody, you know, jumped up on their feet applauding a consensus algorithm. And I'm not saying they're not important, but it's not. That's not what moves people. You've got to make people the hair on the back of your arm stand up. You've got to give people something they can believe in that that really

That really convinces that that

this is a this is a viable future. You know, and I think when we do that we're talking about a message of hope we're talking about a message of, of true promise towards a future that's better than where we are right now. And I think that's what you know, that's, that's a little bit about what the books about it's about how do we get there? How do we get from right now

a market an industry that's totally focused on traders? And in a smaller group? I mean, if you think about it right now, Brandon, I mean, very tiny industry is really tiny. I mean, you know, yeah, what it maybe is stretching it the most, maybe there's 30 million people that know a little bit about blockchain and crypto in the world. That's stretching it. And there's a hell of a lot more people out there. What about the other, you know, six and a half billion of us, you know, that are out there. Why don't we take that technology and take these stories to them? Why don't we make their lives better? What would your you know what, what's The average portfolio going to be worth when that happens when everybody's benefiting from the technology. And those are the that's the idea. That's that's what we really need to be saying to the world and st ourselves. You know, let's quit staring in our belly buttons. And let's build an industry that we all know. 

Brandon Zemp  35:18  
Absolutely. I'll tell you what I'm very excited to get older your book and start reading x i like i like to read. And it sounds awesome. You definitely sold me on it for sure. If there's anything that you wanted to bring up or discuss maybe about your book or something you have going on, that you want people to be aware of, kinda open up the virtual fake floor for you to go ahead and lay out whatever you'd like.

Dennis Lewis  35:48  
Well, thank you. Well, not just, you know, I would say anybody interested I, you know, I'd really love for people to go to Amazon, grab a copy of the book. You know, leave me some feedback there. That would be really awesome. Anybody Just a little bit on the fence,

go to crypto printers club. You know, you get the first four chapters totally free just for signing up, then I'll send you awesome emails that you really like. If you don't, you can unsubscribe, that's cool too. And, you know, I think that it's just time I think that this is the time for us to really, you know, we had the big boom and 2017 with the Icos, we've learned a bunch of lessons. Now it's time for us to really you know, get get to work build this industry into what it can be. And, you know, let's have some fun doing it. And let's make the world a better place.

Brandon Zemp  36:37  
Awesome. Do you have any social media? Do you have a Twitter?

Dennis Lewis  36:40  
Yeah, you can find me at Dennis H. Lewis. That's me on twitter again on LinkedIn, Dennis H. Lewis. said yeah, I'm easy to find. Definitely good openers club or look for green light digital world ICF success.

So two websites were there to

Brandon Zemp  36:58  
very cool Dennis. Thanks for coming on, really appreciate it. You have great ideas. You have an awesome perspective, very excited about the book and really look forward to digging into that and kind of seeing how, from your perspective how you see this industry, how you see it changing how you see the issues. And I think from this podcasts alone, I think a lot of people will get a good understanding of how you think and what your books about and in general, a lot of great info. It was a great discussion. So again, thanks for coming on. Really

Dennis Lewis  37:31  
appreciate it. Thank you, Brandon for having me on. It was a lot of fun. I enjoyed it. 

Brandon Zemp  37:35  
Absolutely. 

Dennis Lewis  37:36  
Talk to you soon. Bye.