Ken Kruger - CEO of Moon

In this episode, Ken Kruger joins me as a guest to discuss Moon, a chrome extension that allows you to buy anything online with crypto. He is the founder and CEO.

​Ken Kruger
--- Twitter: https://twitter.com/krucraft
--- Website: paywithmoon.com

Transcription

Brandon Zemp  0:00  
Hello guys, it is Wednesday, September 18. This week's guest on the podcast is Ken Krueger. He is the founder and CEO of moon. So Moon is pretty interesting Moon is a Chrome browser extension that allows you to make online purchases in crypto, which is pretty cool if you like to shop online and by stuff that way. Ken is also a former engineer for Lockheed Martin and holds degrees from both Cornell and Columbia University very smart guy. Also, if you'd like to make a contribution to the podcast, go to the link in the description for the episode, and you can make a contribution directly that way. contributions are definitely not necessary, but they do help keep away those pesky ads. As always, be sure to subscribe if you haven't already and share this episode with somebody that you think would like to learn more about crypto. Alright, enjoy.

This is the block hash podcast

So, bunch, go ahead and tell me a little bit about how you got into this blockchain space. 

Ken Kruger  1:08  
Sure. So I've been following Bitcoin for quite some time probably since around 2010 you know, I thought it was a really neat idea read about it on Reddit.

I first time actually bought any Bitcoin was in 2013 on Mount docks and I am unfortunately caught up in the mount docks lawsuit. So, Boy, that's a lot of fun.

But I never looked at going into the crypto blockchain space professionally until, you know, towards the end of 2017. I was, you know, kind of thinking about what I wanted to do next. And I was like, No, I really think that there's something here I really love the idea of crypto Bitcoin, just a general idea of decentralization. And, you know, I kind of said, you know, there's something I could do here that could make an impact and solve a pretty big problem. So let me see, you know, what it would take to get into the world professional. I taught some people, I did some research. And then throughout 2018, started, started building the product, started building the company and I, at the time, I'd been running a software consulting company where I helped venture backed startups in New York, build out their products. And I kind of wound that down, stop taking on new clients, and started ramping up. And so we've been, I've been full time on the project for just about a year now. So it's kind of a brief, brief history.

Brandon Zemp  2:54  
Yeah, that's awesome. I didn't know that. You got it, and back in 2013. And all caught up the whole like mountain docs thing to like, do you get anything out of that? Are you still like, in the middle of it?

Ken Kruger  3:05  
Yeah, so so what was really cool about that is I got most of my Bitcoin out before everything imploded. So So somebody set up an impromptu exchange, when mount docks stopped all of their external sends and receives. So you couldn't move your coins out of Mount Cox, but you could move them within mount docks. So some of you use the mountaintops API to set up this impromptu exchange where you could trade trapped coins on Mount docks for free coins outside mount docks by transferring between different accounts. And it was a sketchy website it had it had a couple input fields, you put in your your mount docks, login information, how many coins you want to sell. And Emily, look at the positive dress. And you just it was a blank white page with this form. And I was purely relying on people on Reddit, to tell me that this was a legitimate functioning product. And I was able to get you know, there was an exchange was about 321. So three trapped coins for one free coin. And so I so I got pretty much everything off except for like half a Bitcoin, which was like a rounding error at that point in time. So I'm just I'm trying to get my half a Bitcoin out of Mount docks. And that's what I'm involved in the class action lawsuit, you know, we'll see whatever happens occasionally, I get some stuff in the mail and Japanese don't entirely know what it means. But you know, going through and following all the, all the paperwork that I need to do. But that was, you know, I remember, you know, trying to try to get my coins off, that was a horrifying experience, but really cool that somebody was able to set up that exchange on the fly,

Brandon Zemp  4:54  
exchange things sounds really sketchy though. Like, it just it sounds like someone knew that it was like gonna come completely collapse beforehand, and then kind of set up this way to maneuver around the

Ken Kruger  5:05  
area. Everything that then was

you read on some sites that looked like it was from 1995. And, you know, there's, you know, trading on some kind of Russian site that, you know, people on Reddit would say, Oh, yeah, this is legitimate. And it was a very different, you know, cowboy world. Yeah.

Brandon Zemp  5:27  
It was very different. That's for sure. But yeah, that's an interesting backstory. I didn't know that at all. That's really cool. And then, actually, where'd you go to college?

Ken Kruger  5:37  
So yeah, so I studied computer science at Cornell for undergrad, then went to work. Sorry, I went to study financial engineering at Columbia University. never went into finance. But it was a kind of combination of all my interests of, you know, computer science, mathematics, finance, economics. So I got that, you know, academic introduction. But then I ended up working at Lockheed Martin, I worked on the Ohio class submarine navigation system, primarily worked in the sensor division, as first a software engineer, and then a product manager. And, you know, worked on, you know, a variety of different parts of the project around inertial navigation. So, right after Lockheed, I started a gesture recognition company based off of a patent that I wrote, where we're using, you know, some of the same techniques that you use in inertial navigation in military sphere, but you apply that to your your sensors, like your accelerometer gyroscope that's found in consumer electronics. Now, unfortunately, nobody cares about gesture recognition. And that company failed.

Brandon Zemp  6:57  
But that was a really great learning experience. It's about gesture recognition, correct. That's what you said.

Ken Kruger  7:03  
Yes. Yeah, exactly. So you know, the types of stuff that we could do with gesture was, you know, for example, your Apple Watch tracks your steps, and some basic movements. With our technology, we were able to detect a bench press squat, lunge, jumping, Jacks it up, push up. Pretty much anything you did, and we also didn't machine wearing on your watch. So if you did five repetitions of a movement, it would it would use machine learning to learn that new movement. So it was really cool. It was cutting edge. We developed this before the Apple Watch was released. Right? And we're kind of betting on that, you know, the whole Fitbit craze and fitness around gesture. And then, you know, I think that the kind of that whole industry, all of our competitors, the everybody working on that stuff just kind of went out of business.

Brandon Zemp  7:52  
So why they go, what happened

Ken Kruger  7:56  
here, I think nobody really wanted to use it for that type of track, right now in the house or passive. But what we found was that a lot of people who were, you know, going to the gym for weight training, or calisthenics, or really the hardcore people, they didn't want to wear a smartwatch on their wrist. You know, an even Fitbit struggled quite a bit after that, you know, people, you know, the Apple Watch really took off, and everybody wears the Apple Watch, but it's not so much for a fitness device. If your weight training or doing any of the complex exercises, it's really utilized mostly by runners, bikers and swimmers. So we just never saw that conversion of of, you know, the quantitative self, you know, kind of roll over into the other sports. So, maybe that'll change in the future. You know, there are some people who even came out with some dedicated devices to try to do this type of trick. Everything seemed to kind of flop.

Brandon Zemp  9:03  
Yeah, maybe I guess the market maybe was just too nice for that. But I mean, it's also kind of surprising, because you think that the way health is going nowadays, and people getting even more and more particular, with what their body's doing and how they're managing their body that they kind of want something like that that market would be a lot bigger. So that's kind of interesting.

Ken Kruger  9:23  
Yeah, you know, we went to gyms, and we did user research. And we found there are people who have smart watches, but they take them off when they go to the gym. And they're like, I just don't want this on my wrist. And then you get into weird situations. Like if you're wearing an apple watch while you're doing the bench press, you want your wrist or the part of your hand could touch the button on your Apple Watch. So there's like all these interesting things that we learned from doing this. And, you know, I think it's going to happen eventually, you know, but, you know, still to be seen when, when that gets adopted by the broader

Brandon Zemp  9:59  
market. Right now, I have issues with my Apple watch every once in a while too. And sometimes I find myself taking it off. If I'm like weightlifting, because I like hit the watch. And then we'll start like running the timer for some reason. And like I often I don't know why it's running the timer. Exactly. But like other times, like if I'm running, it's awesome, because I can track my heart rate. I really don't. I think it depends on like, who it is specifically in that market. I don't know. It's really weird. But I mean, it's technology, I think everyone would want to use like all the time, like for like fitness life, not just their lifestyle

Ken Kruger  10:35  
life. It'll happen eventually. It's just a matter when,

Brandon Zemp  10:38  
well, we're already kind of way off topic anyways. But regarding what you actually do with moon, I've used it a few times actually have the extension and have used it with Amazon. And it's pretty cool. It's really interesting. But for those that don't know how to use it that are going to be listening this episode, can you tell us a little bit about how moon works.

Ken Kruger  11:04  
So so it's pretty straightforward. Moon is a browser extension, you install it into your browser. Right now we support Chrome, brave and Opera will be supporting additional browsers soon. So you just add that to your browser, you go shop on Amazon, like you normally would you just add products to your cart, we augment the product page. So you'll actually be able to see the price of any given product in whichever cryptocurrency you'd like to pay with. And you just add the product to your cart when you're in check out moon gives you the option to complete your purchase using cryptocurrency. So, you know, we offer two different methods right now one is you can pay the lightning network, in which case a lightning network invoice QR code and public keep shows up. So you can deposit and instantly complete your transaction, you can connect your Coinbase account to move. In that case, you'll be given the option to select one of your Coinbase wallet. So you can pay with Bitcoin Litecoin ether or Bitcoin cash. And you hit pay and and you're done. So it all happens instantly. We don't charge any additional fees. And it's a pretty seamless experience overall. You know, everything happens on your Amazon account. There's nobody behind the scenes making purchase for you or anything sketchy like that. So So yeah, so far, we've been on Amazon. com for a little while. And we're going to be launching on some additional ecommerce merchants soon. Notably, this, the next week we can have, we're going to be supporting Amazon Canada, we're going to be expanding to the European Amazon sites, and eBay and Walmart and sites like that that pretty shortly thereafter. But so far most people have requested, you know, it's funny. Arab, is it Oh, Amazon. com. So we have folks in Canada, folks in Europe, messaging us every day, hey, when you're going to support, you know, co.uk when you're going to support Amazon ID. So so we're really prioritizing all of those, which is interesting, because we weren't, we weren't thinking about international expansion, as happening so soon. But there's just so much demand for that. So we're just kind of expanding internationally with our Amazon support before we go to additional merchants in the US.

Brandon Zemp  13:38  
No, it's awesome. I live in Canada. So I'm glad you guys made it up there. Yeah. So do you guys have to work with Amazon on this directly? Or do you guys just overlay on top of their merchant platform? Yeah.

Ken Kruger  13:50  
So that's what's great about our technology is that we overlay on top of existing ecommerce sites. So we don't have to do any direct b2b sales in any of these ecommerce websites. You know, a lot of people said, Oh, my gosh, Amazon's taking Bitcoin is like, Well, not exactly. You know, we didn't convince the biggest ecommerce company in the world to suddenly accept Bitcoin, I wish we could. But it's going to take them a little bit longer to get on board the Bitcoin train. So what our technology enables is, you know, we're able to facilitate these transactions, the merchants still get us dollars, or whichever fiat currency they expect. But we allow the consumer to pay in the cryptocurrency of their choice. And, you know, this is what we kind of see as necessary for the next five years or so. Until cryptocurrency becomes more widely adopted. So if you're a merchant, you know, if you're an Amazon or BestBuy or somebody like that, to accept cryptocurrency to actually hold that cryptocurrency is such an undertaking of updating your accounting systems, and maybe you're running a trading desk, you know, how do you pay your suppliers, you know, it gets to be very complex, and they're just not willing to do that at this point. So they need to receive fee up. But all we're doing is satisfying the demand that consumers have to spend the cryptocurrency. And we think that with all this, you know, all this consumer spending behavior, that's when you can go to a merchant and say, Hey, why don't you now accept cryptocurrency as a payment method? And then, you know, here are all the services that you need to actually do that in a way that's not going to be disruptive to your business.

Brandon Zemp  15:33  
As one of the things that kind of drew me into it. When I first saw you guys, I think you guys were in an article when I first heard about moon and then I tried it out. And I was like, well, this is a great solution. Because I mean, there's all this effort to try and get retailers of all kinds to accept Bitcoin accept crypto to hold custody of crypto for their customers for service or product, but I mean, it's just a not feasible today. And it's part easier, especially when they don't necessarily want to hold it to have someone in the middle. And I know it's like, counterintuitive to like the whole idea behind have someone from It's awesome, because it kind of helps everyone out in that situation, whether you're the customer or you're the retailer, it makes the whole like paying with crypto part very seamless in the commercial marketplace.

Ken Kruger  16:25  
Yeah, and it's something that, you know, again, this is a, you know, a temporary situation where you need to have these intermediaries, and you have to convert from crypto to fee out, you know, I do think eventually, you know, ever everyone will be on crypto. But in the short term, what's really interesting problem to solve is how do you transition from where we are today to that future where we all want to be? And that's where, you know, you come up with these imperfect solutions, where sometimes, you know, the the purists and the idealistic people say, Hey, you know, like, I don't want to shop online crypto, unless, you know, the merchant is actually taking the Bitcoin and using it to play pay their suppliers. And if something wait as I, you know, that's just not feasible at this point in time, you know, so, you know, you need a solution like this in the short term, kind of get things going. And then hopefully, that can springboard us into, you know, helping get merchants on board to natively accept crypto.

Brandon Zemp  17:26  
Absolutely. And what you guys are doing definitely solves a lot of problems. So when someone goes to use their crypto, are they only able to buy with Bitcoin? Or can they use a different type of crypto?

Ken Kruger  17:40  
Yeah, so right now, you pay a Bitcoin via lightning network, and then pay with Bitcoin Litecoin ether and Bitcoin cash via your Coinbase account. Okay. So those are the options we have right now we're looking to add some, some some other payment options there. And that's some stuff that we're exploring. But so far, you know, we're big believers enlightened network. And really, the the constraints that we kind of impose on ourselves are, you know, being instant secure, and no fees. So if you think about, you know, what's going to drive adoption of crypto for payments, you know, you have to be as good as existing payment technologies, right? If you have to pay if you have to wait six confirmations for a Bitcoin transaction, or who wants to wait an hour to for their purchase to go through, right, especially you say ordering fast food, for instance, right? doesn't make any sense. And why would you want to pay a flat network fee of say, $1 52 bucks, something like that on a $5 USB purchase, right? That's an enormous fee in terms of percentage that you'd be paying on that transaction. So by you know, integrating the lightning network, or, like integrating with exchange and wallets and things like that, we're able to do is make sure meets those constraints of being, you know, at least near instant, secure, and effectively having minimal fees or no fees. So that's really the goal. So do you guys like

Brandon Zemp  19:17  
lock in the price within like, a certain timeframe when someone's ordering? Like, how does that process work?

Ken Kruger  19:23  
Yeah, yeah. So you know, if you're paying with lightning network, we would give you, you know, how, you know, lightning network invoice, here's how many Satoshi that you need to pay. scan a QR code sends it on Oh, we give, we give the user at this point, given three minutes to pay the invoice, which is, you know, typically, more than enough time to kind of get your wallet out scan QR code. If you pay with Coinbase, it's, it's pretty much you just get the exchange rate at the moment you hit the pay button. So you know, typically, you get very good pricing, we always pass on the best possible exchange rate to the customer.

Brandon Zemp  20:02  
Yeah, that's awesome. And I really like lightning network a lot. So I'm glad that you guys do integrate with lightning networks, it solves a ton of issues with Bitcoin, which I'm sure you're obviously familiar with. Yeah, it definitely opens up your audience to have lightning network involved with men. And because so many people definitely enjoy using Bitcoin. I mean, and it's historically had so many issues with being super slow and getting out competed by some of these other cryptocurrencies as well. So yeah, it's, it's very cool to see what lightning networks doing. And it's awesome. You guys are using it?

Ken Kruger  20:37  
Yeah, yeah. And something that's really neat is we've actually got a lot of people to start using lightning network. And that's been really exciting. You know, every day I get people messaging me to our support email address, saying, hey, how do I set up a lightning network? Well, how do I do this? How do I do that? So So a big part of our job so far as is not just been provided with technology, but also around education. Your how to use lightning network was like, you know, here's how this work. Here's my work. So so it's been really cool to be able to do that. And, you know, it's there's a lot of satisfaction that goes with helping educate people.

Brandon Zemp  21:11  
What's the most popular lightning network wallet that you see people wanting to use?

Ken Kruger  21:17  
The most popular that we see? Well, they're kind of three that we see. Blue wallet,

Eclair and zap are the big three that we always have people writing to us about. For the you know, the newbie that comes along, who doesn't understand like network all that? Well, we typically say get blue all at a shop. Now, pros and cons pros, super easy, super straightforward. comms is that out of the box, it's a custodial wallet, right? But it is very simple. And to somebody who's not necessarily going to run their own node, it is a it is just like a really, really great simple solution, just kind of start using it right away. And then you can kind of back into, you know, okay, let me learn a bit more about this setup, a node, things like that. You know, Claire is great on Android. So they're only on Android. And then zap is great, because they also have a desktop offering. And a really slick user interface. So and that one is non custodial. They have a great technology to run a node on your on your desktop.

Brandon Zemp  22:24  
Yeah, I, I use the blue wallet. And I do really like it. And I'm, I know all these other wallets are pretty good, too. For lightning network, it'd be nice if some of these other major wallets just integrated it anyways, because it is like a whole nother step. And then trying to like educate people on that does get a little complicated. Sometimes you got to move it to another wallet, other than your main wallet. And then you got to like load it, or whatever the term is called. Yeah, it'd be easier if like it was integrated with my Coinbase account, or with my jobs wallet or something like that. But I'm sure that will come time.

Ken Kruger  23:00  
You know, I've heard you know, I think Brian Armstrong clean basis has mentioned in some article that, you know, they're looking to add light and network, it's just it's so good. And it's a massive undertaking for some of these companies to do that type of thing. Especially when they just have so much infrastructure built around something. They're working on so many different products. But there are some walls that have that have implemented lightning network that most people just don't realize. So you know, Kobo wallet is one that's relatively popular. And they added lightning network support, but most people just don't realize that they haven't really publicized it that much. And there are a few other few other major wallets that have added support. And it's just kind of there. And they just haven't pushed it all that much. So I think it's coming and more and more Walsh going to add the functionality?

Brandon Zemp  23:47  
Yeah, I'm sure they will, over time. It's just it's a great solution for Bitcoin. And it's obviously solves a lot of problems since growing like crazy every single day to like the number of notes are going online are ridiculous. Ever since beginning of this year, so yeah, very excited for it. Other than Amazon, does moon have plans to be compatible with other retailers?

Ken Kruger  24:11  
Absolutely. Yeah. So so we're focusing right now on Amazon, primarily, because it's just the demand, everybody's asking for Amazon in every country. And that, at least the United States is 50% of ecommerce purchases all on Amazon. So you'll immediately get 50% of them, right. But beyond that, you know, eBay, Walmart, we're looking at a lot of the in the short term, we're going to integrate with a bunch of the top ecommerce merchants by volume. And obviously also looking at, you know, what our what our users request and what we get requested via our email support. But within the next couple months, hopefully, by the end of the year, we're in to support every e commerce website in the United States. So that's something that that's in progress, it's a bit of a heavier lift, as opposed to kind of, you know, integrating doing an Amazon and then doing a Walmart and eBay. But that's something that that is in progress. And and really that's our goal, we you know, we want to enable people to shop anywhere with their cryptocurrency. So, you know, it's a matter of the strategy, how do you roll that out to have the most impact? So you know, obviously, starting with Amazon was it was the easy one. But you know, over the next few months, you're going to see more and more merchants and then, you know, aiming for before the holiday season, you'll be able to shop anywhere and do all your holiday shopping.

Brandon Zemp  25:34  
Yeah, that'd be awesome. I'd love to be able to use my crypto to go out and actually buy some gifts for people. It'd be nice to make it more versatile in that way. And yeah, it's awesome that you guys have that big of a milestone hit by the end of the year to like, there's a lot of potential for moon to do a lot of good and to help people spend their Bitcoin or their crypto every single day. Means obviously still a hassle. But this stuff definitely makes it easier, other than the larger retailers like Amazon, and you will probably bring on by the end of the year. Do you guys have the thought or the ability to integrate with like a small business or like an SME?

Ken Kruger  26:20  
Yeah. So when I say will be on every ecommerce website, by the end of the year, that I mean, every e commerce website doesn't matter which one it is. Okay, so So that'll be from the big box retailers to the mom and pop shops. So that'll be you know, that that's what we're in progress working on right now. So, like I said, you know, focusing on the big box retailers with with these high volumes, and then you kind of going after that long tail of you know, mom and pop shops, and I think there's a lot of value there. And a lot of people want to shop we've actually had a lot of small businesses reach out to us and say, Oh, my gosh, how can we how can we, you know, MIT get this to work on our website. And it was really actually really cool to see people like that reach out to us, if you're just selling like tomato sauce or something on Shopify. It's really neat to see that kind of interest. So, so really excited. And people kind of shocked when we tell them what you don't actually have to do anything, we're going to do all the work, you just sit back and all of a sudden, your website's going to be able to take crypto as long as the customer has the browser extension installed. So that's, that's something that I don't think the store owners entirely understand. But, uh, but you know, it makes it makes their life easier. So they don't have to add an API. They don't have to do anything.

Brandon Zemp  27:42  
Yeah, it sure does make their life a lot easier. Like, they don't have to have a wallet for this at all. What about mobile? Like, do you guys plan on sticking to just desktop? Chrome extensions and whatnot? Or do you guys plan on doing something on mobile device near future?

Ken Kruger  27:58  
Yeah, so our business focus is on the desktop ecommerce shopping right now. You know, truly, you don't want to diversify your product offerings too soon, you know, it's all a matter of, you know, hardcore focus. But, you know, obviously, we have to build, right? It's a growing trend in e commerce. Roughly, it's roughly 50%. Right now, each side 50% of e commerce shopping is mobile 50% is desktop. And it's skewing more and more towards mobile shopping. So obviously, you want to be playing in the mobile space, you want to enable

mobile e commerce shopping. And that's something that's that's in our product roadmap.

But uh, you know, big focus in the short term is, is the browser extension?

Brandon Zemp  28:42  
Absolutely. You got to start somewhere. But I mean, I tell people all the time, it'd be amazing, I'd spend so much money if I could like pay for Postmates or doordash. With Bitcoin? I'm good to know. Yeah. And I know a lot of people that would love to do the same to because I mean, a lot of us were holding crypto on our mobile device and you. And yeah, you can definitely scan a barcode or QR code through an extension on your computer and everything. But I mean, in terms of where people are spending money, I mean, it's I mean, very quickly, all going to the mobile device and getting away from laptops, and it's getting far more seamless, and going towards handheld devices and whatnot. I at least Personally, I know I'd spend a lot of Bitcoin if it was on the phone, for sure. All right. Oh, yeah, I'll test it out. I'd be happy to one more question before we kind of wrap up and everything like regarding security? How secure is it to send through moon using a Chrome extension? Like is the Chrome browser and the Chrome extension safe? Is there any privacy issues with that, for people that are wanting to buy something through on Amazon? Like, what do you guys thoughts around that?

Ken Kruger  29:53  
Yeah, so so that's one of our, you know, the biggest one of the biggest things we focus on is security, right? Like doing something in crypto union immediately become a target of hackers, right? And we kind of built our infrastructure in such a way that would not be that big of an issue. So first of all, you know, we're not a custodial service, so we never hold your money for you. You know, if you're, if you, you know, want to pay with Coinbase, connect Coinbase account, Coinbase has your money, they have your security under control. And if you do have to use your Coinbase account, like we have, you know, we support two factor authentication, daily limits. You know, there's all these permission controls that you have So, so there's a lot of security there. And then when it comes to lightning network, it's a completely trust plus payment system. So if you are, you're just scanning your lightning invoice at the moment of purchase, you send the money in your purchases, now. It's effectively like cash. So so there's really no way you know, I can't get into your lightning network wallet somehow and try to steal your money or, or anything like that. There's no, there's nobody possible security vulnerability there. You know, something that does concern people sometimes with browser extensions, is, you know, their privacy, right, browser extensions, for, you know, a decent amount of trust effectively, right, when you install that extension, it says, you know, Moon is going to have access to see the websites that you visit, right? And people asked once a week, why do you need this level of permissions, and it's something that we're actually going to reduce the permission scope that, that the extension requests. But, but as ran, we don't track any websites, anybody visits, we really, it's really just Amazon and our own website. At this point. You know, we have the ability for somebody to request a new website to be added, there's a button. So if you're open moon on like eBay, for instance, you could click

a button,

I request to shop at eBay, and then we kind of keep that in our, just for our own records. But, you know, we don't track what you're doing, we don't, you know, that we do as much as we can to know as little about you as possible. That's really our goal. And especially,

you know, think about the crypto community,

that's, you know, you're you're looking at some of the most privacy focus people you could ever possibly have as a as a customer base, you know, so building that trust and making sure that that that privacy is there is very important. And we're going to continue going down that path and like I said, restricting some of the permissions that we request and giving the customer more options for kind of restricting what Moon is able to do and just to give them that that you know, additional warm fuzzy feeling inside that we're doing the right thing.

Brandon Zemp  32:53  
Yeah, that's awesome. Glad you guys are definitely taking the time to like really put some thought into it too. I know there are a lot of people that obviously are very worried about sending their their Bitcoin somewhere and then losing it or getting hacked or someone jumping into the middle and taking it there's all kinds of horror stories over the year, how things have gone wrong with crypto, just I mean, it just motivates about after to find a way to kind of get in the middle somehow So no, it's awesome that you definitely have that as a priority to not make a lot of people happy.

Ken Kruger  33:26  
Absolutely. And we're always you know if anybody has any great ideas or any feedback you know, I personally respond to just about every customer request that we have any email that sent any contact form I you know, I love hearing feedback I love to hear people's thoughts and concerns and that just helps us to improve the product improve the experience and you know deliver a valuable service to to as many people as we can so you know anybody listening feel free so pay with calm on social media it's at pay with moon you know you can email me at contact at pay with moon cannot pay with moon calm. So

you know happy to happy to always hear from everybody

Brandon Zemp  34:10  
go to pay with moon calm. Send him a whole bunch of emails book.

Ken Kruger  34:18  
fan of our night this is trouble.

Brandon Zemp  34:19  
No spam. Please don't spam. But before we wrap up and everything, did you have any important dates or roadmap updates or anything that any of the subscribers or listeners should like be aware of regarding Whitman's doing that's coming up?

Ken Kruger  34:36  
Yes, if you're in Canada, and and you've been dying to spend your crypto on amazon.ca you know, stay tuned in the next week or so. And if you are in Europe, you know, stay tuned a couple of weeks out you'll be able to shop on co Uk DE you know all all European Amazon's so we're super excited about that. And we hope everybody enjoys.

Brandon Zemp  35:03  
Well, Ken, thank you for coming on everything really appreciate it. And talking about moon kind of elaborating on where you guys are at how it works and where you guys are going. I think a lot of people take a lot of value out of that for sure. So yeah, thank you really appreciate it.

Ken Kruger  35:19  
Thank you so much for having me. It's been a pleasure.

Brandon Zemp  35:21  
Anytime. Alright, have a good day. You too.